Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪it's one thing if it's a meme or a screenshot of text. i want that to be accessible, it's no great ask from me. i do that without thinking about it‬

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪but it's another thing when it's a photo and the purpose of posting it is to demonstrate the beauty of the object. how should i describe that to someone who can't see it? i'm imposing my own meaning onto it, preventing any “death of the author”, right?‬

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪alt text for a photo is an art in itself, it's a creative process. the alt text is its own artistic work. and that's beautiful, on the one hand, but it's also so, so difficult, and i feel like i'm betraying the original through every one of thousands of details i must not.‬

2 replies →
2 replies

Nirro

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

@hikari hard agree on this.

I often think that for the trivial ones (describing an informative photography or schematic), the alt-text should travel side by side with the image as metadata.

People will repost images from wikipedia, from news outlets... which already had perfectly valid alt-text, but it's lost in the process.

And for non-trivial ones like a work of art I very much agree with you: it's a creative process that may or may not exist. It may or may not make sense.

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Nirro)

@nirro yes, i think the way metadata is so easily lost online is really troublesome


mia@void.rehab

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

@hikari for me, as an alt text maximalist, for works where you cannot capture the true meaning of the image in text, just a clarification works. if it's cute art of a girl, i'd put "cute art of a girl". describing the specifics doesn't help much, but the essence of the image can help a lot to give context to a conversation

Saagar Jha

(replying to mia@void.rehab)
@mia @hikari As someone who is temporarily blind (slow internet connection) I find these to be more valuable than nothing if done reasonably

Saagar Jha

(replying to Saagar Jha)
@mia @hikari Please defer to people who use alt text more regularly than I do of course

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪and you might say, well, without the alt text someone else will have no ability to experience it, that i'm making the work more accessible. and that's true, but i still wonder what the point of it is if this is so. my descriptions only make sense if you have a mind's eye.‬

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪who is the audience? i don't think it benefits someone with impaired sight, because they can still appreciate the work. does it benefit someone who has been blind their whole life? it conveys to them what i “see” in a photo, but they will never be able to interpret it themselves?‬

1 replies →
1 replies

Misty

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

@hikari Yeah, I feel like the question of "who is this for and what purpose does it serve" doesn't always get asked, but it really does guide what kind of alt text it'd even need.

The other thing is, the WCAG guidelines tend to emphasize concise descriptions in ways that posts about alt text here don’t. If the community guidelines don't line up with pre-existing "advice for writing alt text" guides, that makes it even harder to figure out.

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪uhh, that was meant to say “thousands of details i must omit” earlier‬

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪i don't know. does all my work have to be accessible? when i write a song, do i need to describe it to someone who can't hear it? am i not doing them a disservice? if they had the sheet music, they could form their own interpretation, but am i obliged to provide one for them?‬

2 replies →
2 replies

demize

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

@hikari you have independently come up with the exact reason that the “you must provide alt-text for everything” discourse is so awful; it’s bizarrely laser-focused and it puts a large burden on people posting that often just results in either people not posting or people stopping doing alt-text entirely

it’s not actually mandatory though, and it being good doesn’t mean its absence is worth being mad about


Anisse

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

@hikari in those cases I often provide incomplete and terse descriptions. The reasoning being that it's always better than nothing.
"Beautiful anime screencap" is better than no description.
Also, I think the discourse of "please provide description" definitely sucks. I prefer the "here's a description" and then let the author add it (or not). I'd go further: it should be a feature of the social network to crowd source those.

2 replies →
2 replies

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Anisse)

@Aissen oh, crowdsourcing would be excellent! i'd love to get a variety of interpretations, not force the uploader to provide the single definitive one


abadidea

(replying to Anisse)

@Aissen @hikari I want to note that multiple times I’ve had people donate a “missing” alt text to an image that already had a perfectly good alt text for some reason, which very much comes across like unsolicited grammar corrections, and so I ask that everyone please double check there’s actually a missing or severely inadequate alt text before donating one

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪i wonder, if i tagged all my photos like they're on a booru, would that be enough… that's still an interpretation‬

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪the closer anything i make becomes to “art”, the harder it is to describe it, and the more reluctant i am to try‬

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪it also demands a certain knowledge of the subject that i simply do not have in many cases. i don't know how to describe in text the texture of a wall when i do not know what material it is made of‬

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪it'd be one thing if i was paid to post pretty photos online, but i'm not. i'm an amateur photographer who almost never posts any of her work anywhere because, among other things, alt text is an obstacle

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

‪anyway, if i start posting large collections of photos with no alt text, then i'm sorry, but that is probably the only way i can do it, and i hope that my eventual writing about what i see in my photos, and currently existing ai models that can interpret images, can substitute.‬

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

i think this is just another instance of me realising that guilt is a really troublesome emotion, at least for me personally, though i've seen the same sentiment expressed before by like… for lack of better words, tpot-adjacent people. even if the goal is good this means is bad

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

and it's complicated because i don't think people who try to nudge or push you towards putting alt text on everything necessarily want you to feel guilt about not doing so. (some do, certainly, but not all.) it's just a trap that people like me are too vulnerable to.

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

oh, right, that's the thing i was remembering: “awayness can't aim”. if you make people feel bad about not putting alt text on stuff, your goal might be to guide them towards putting alt text on stuff, but the same emotions work equally well for just not posting at all instead.

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

the online information sphere is just too good at making me feel guilty about doing things and trying to avoid them, rather than making me excited about doing better things instead and doing those… it's a pattern. i've gotten better at avoiding it with time, though.

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

as an aside: gods, i could write a lot of words about how memeplexes that make people feel guilty about engaging with particular kinds of art, or engaging with art in particular ways, are corrosive to the human project… but others can express it better and it doesn't spark joy

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

(also i'm not excited for the “hikari cancelled arc”)

Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many)

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

two replies i got that i want to highlight:

• someone wished social media could crowdsource alt text, and i love this idea. i'd rather have a diverse set of interpretations than make it an all-or-nothing obligation on the original poster
• a tiny summary is better than nothing

asie

(replying to Kanbaru 🌟 (one hikari of too many))

@hikari@social.noyu.me I still miss when YouTube allowed people to submit translated subtitles for videos. That was such a great feature.